Interview with Lester Brown, continued from page 3.
Q: Does it concern you that many of your book's exemplary solutions come out of semi-authoritarian political situations?
I was looking for success stories, whether it's breakthroughs in fish farming in China or dairy production in India overtaking the U.S. Wind energy in Western Europe. Solar-cell manufacturing in Japan. Reforestation in South Korea.
I didn't look at the form of government to sort out what would work. Carp polyculture's roots go back 2,000 years; it doesn't require a one-party dictatorship.
I remember when the Soviets beat us into space with Sputnik. A lot of Americans were despairing, and said the Soviets have a command economy, they can beat us at anything they want. But what that system lacked was a free flow of information and ideas, and in the end that's what really weakened them. We were on the moon 10 years later, and now it's been almost half a century and the Russians still haven't gotten there.
Q: Does it worry you that China's ultimate success may be hampered in the same way, by inhibited flow of information and political freedom?
The answer is, I don't know. They're having great trouble. We tend to think of China as this monolith: You have the party in Beijing sending down regulations. But at the grassroots there are no enforcement mechanisms. The Chinese EPA is at most 600 people. That's a tiny organization.
They can't do anything about this in any meaningful way. There are hundreds of thousands of factories to be monitored. They're a long way from doing that.
Q: What's the most important thing for humanity to start doing?
Get the market to tell the ecological truth. Calculate the cost of burning a gallon of gasoline, for example, and incorporate the indirect cost in the form of a tax. We're all economic decision-makers -- consumers, corporate planners, government policymakers, investment bankers -- and we respond to market signals. But the market's giving us bad information. I mean grossly distorted information. So we're making bad decisions and getting in more and more trouble every day. Whether we can pull out of that or not, I'm not sure.
Q: What should I do? Talk to congressfolk? Write a letter to the editor? Buy a hybrid?
Most of the people in audiences I'm talking with have been asking themselves that question. Recycle paper, buy a Prius, whatever -- lifestyle changes. But we've reached the point where we have to go beyond that. We now have to go for systemic change; otherwise we're not going to make it. That's why tax restructuring is so important. (Incidentally, the Chinese authorities are studying and working on a major tax restructuring just for this purpose.)
That means becoming politically active. Each of us is going to have to define that in our own terms. Maybe it's lobbying city council or representatives in Washington, letting them know what we think, what we want them to do. If enough of us do that, change will begin.
We're seeing signs that Republicans are beginning to cross over on some of these issues, because of the concerns of their constituents. We're getting some major corporate crossovers. GE is now a major player in wind energy. They are cranking up 300 turbines year before last, 600 last year, 1,200 this year -- they're just going. And Goldman Sachs is beginning to invest heavily. When I talk about Goldman Sachs, it changes the way people think about wind energy.
Things may be starting to change.
David Roberts is staff writer for Grist. This piece first appeared in Grist. For more environmental news and humor sign up for Grist's free e-mail service.
Q: Does it concern you that many of your book's exemplary solutions come out of semi-authoritarian political situations?
I was looking for success stories, whether it's breakthroughs in fish farming in China or dairy production in India overtaking the U.S. Wind energy in Western Europe. Solar-cell manufacturing in Japan. Reforestation in South Korea.
I didn't look at the form of government to sort out what would work. Carp polyculture's roots go back 2,000 years; it doesn't require a one-party dictatorship.
I remember when the Soviets beat us into space with Sputnik. A lot of Americans were despairing, and said the Soviets have a command economy, they can beat us at anything they want. But what that system lacked was a free flow of information and ideas, and in the end that's what really weakened them. We were on the moon 10 years later, and now it's been almost half a century and the Russians still haven't gotten there.
Q: Does it worry you that China's ultimate success may be hampered in the same way, by inhibited flow of information and political freedom?
The answer is, I don't know. They're having great trouble. We tend to think of China as this monolith: You have the party in Beijing sending down regulations. But at the grassroots there are no enforcement mechanisms. The Chinese EPA is at most 600 people. That's a tiny organization.
They can't do anything about this in any meaningful way. There are hundreds of thousands of factories to be monitored. They're a long way from doing that.
Q: What's the most important thing for humanity to start doing?
Get the market to tell the ecological truth. Calculate the cost of burning a gallon of gasoline, for example, and incorporate the indirect cost in the form of a tax. We're all economic decision-makers -- consumers, corporate planners, government policymakers, investment bankers -- and we respond to market signals. But the market's giving us bad information. I mean grossly distorted information. So we're making bad decisions and getting in more and more trouble every day. Whether we can pull out of that or not, I'm not sure.
Q: What should I do? Talk to congressfolk? Write a letter to the editor? Buy a hybrid?
Most of the people in audiences I'm talking with have been asking themselves that question. Recycle paper, buy a Prius, whatever -- lifestyle changes. But we've reached the point where we have to go beyond that. We now have to go for systemic change; otherwise we're not going to make it. That's why tax restructuring is so important. (Incidentally, the Chinese authorities are studying and working on a major tax restructuring just for this purpose.)
That means becoming politically active. Each of us is going to have to define that in our own terms. Maybe it's lobbying city council or representatives in Washington, letting them know what we think, what we want them to do. If enough of us do that, change will begin.
We're seeing signs that Republicans are beginning to cross over on some of these issues, because of the concerns of their constituents. We're getting some major corporate crossovers. GE is now a major player in wind energy. They are cranking up 300 turbines year before last, 600 last year, 1,200 this year -- they're just going. And Goldman Sachs is beginning to invest heavily. When I talk about Goldman Sachs, it changes the way people think about wind energy.
Things may be starting to change.
David Roberts is staff writer for Grist. This piece first appeared in Grist. For more environmental news and humor sign up for Grist's free e-mail service.